Wages of Wins Network Weekend Podcast

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If it’s the weekend, then it’s time for another Wages of Wins Network podcast.   Mosi Platt once again served as moderator. What follows is his summary of our conversation.

 

You can listen to the podcast one of three ways:

The cast:

The synopsis:

Derrick Rose and Tom Thibodeau are the media’s prohibitive favorites for the MVP and Coach of the Year awards because they’re the leading scorer and defensive architect (respectively) of the #1 team in the Eastern Conference, but are they getting too much credit for the Bulls’ success?

  • ESPN reported that MVP & Coach of the Year have come from the same team 11 times, but Dave describes why Rose’s performance has been more comparable to Kyle Lowry than an MVP candidate and why Thibodeau may not be the reason the defense has been the best in the NBA.
  • Mosi and Arturo discuss whether the Bulls can challenge the Heat and Celtics for a trip to the Finals.
  • This great Bruce Blitz youtube clip is discussed. Dave explains why Tim Legler and other television analysts say crazy things like “Rose is the most dominating point guard since Magic Johnson.” For giggles and grins, Arturo takes a stab at estimating the difference between Magic and Rose off the top of his head.
  • Mosi called Rose a chucker in this comment, but his college coaches, John Calipari and Rod Strickland, said on NBA TV that Rose was a deferential, pass-first point guard when he came to Memphis and they convinced him to shoot more. Dave gave his theory on why coaches do that.

Why are the Nuggets getting better results from their trade with the Knicks if their General Manager said they ‘got killed’ in the trade?

  • The Nuggets’ former Director of Quantitative Analysis, Dean Oliver, said the Carmelo Anthony trade rumors had a negative psychological impact on the team that degraded the team’s performance. The impact of Melo in Denver and New York is debated.
  • Is history repeating itself in New York?
  • The Nuggets have the second-best defensive efficiency in the NBA since trading Carmelo Anthony. Is that a result of George Karl’s coaching? Is it sustainable?

What’s crazier about March Madness—shots like this one Jimmer Fredette hit to help send the BYU-Florida game into overtime or how much money schools like Brigham Young University make off their star players’ performance without giving them any fair compensation?

  • Dave describes findings from sports economics research on the exploitation of college athletes.
  • And then Mosi provided some numbers from some of this year’s men’s basketball programs.

As Mosi noted… after Jimmer Fredette scored 43 points to beat San Diego State in January, Darren Rovell reported the following:

  1. “BYU spokesman Michael Smart told CNBC that sales of basketball-related merchandise at the arena on Wednesday night’s alone surpassed the season-long merchandise totals from each of last 15 seasons.”
  2. #32 BYU jerseys cost $55. The bookstore only had four left in stock after the game on January 28th and were back-ordered out to a month (2/25/11).
  3. “Since the NCAA doesn’t admit to this being specifically Fredette’s jersey—his name is not allowed to be on the back—Fredette himself will not receive any royalties from the sales of his gear.”
  •  
    • 2009 BYU operating expenses (game day) per player – $34,586
    • 2009 Total expenses for BYU men’s basketball team – $3.6 million
    • 2009 Total reveneues from BYU men’s basketball – $3.9 million

These colleges would seem to have profited the most from exploiting their basketball stars since they had the most players on NBA rosters at the beginning of the 2011 season (according to rpiratings.com):

UCLA – 14 players. 2009-10 Expenses & Revenues:

  • $51,424 operating expenses per player
  • $6.3 million total expenses
  • $12.4 million in revenue

Duke – 13 players. 2009-10 Expenses & Revenues:

  • $137,612 operating expenses per player
  • $12.3 million total expenses
  • $26.7 million in revenue

U. of Kentucky – 13 players. 2009-10 Expenses & Revenues:

  • $198,147 operating expenses per player
  • $11.6 million total expenses
  • $16.8 million in revenue

U. of Kansas – 12 players. 2009-10 Expenses & Revenues:

  • $97,873 operating expenses per player
  • $11 million total expenses
  • $16.1 million in revenue

U. of North Carolina – 12 players. 2009-10 Expenses & Revenues:

  • $79,021 operating expenses per player
  • $6.6 million total expenses
  • $20.6 million in revenue

U. of Connecticut – 11 players. 2009-10 Expenses & Revenues:

  • $117,074 operating expenses per player
  • $6.9 million total expenses
  • $7.7 million in revenue

U. of Texas – 10 players. 2009-10 Expenses & Revenues:

  • $148,783 operating expenses per player
  • $8.9 million total expenses
  • $15.6 million in revenue

U. of Arizona – 10 players. 2009-10 Expenses & Revenues:

  • $115,400 operating expenses per player
  • $5.8 million total expenses
  • $19.3 million in revenue

Revenue and expense data for universities’ men’s basketball programs taken from ope.ed.gov.

- Mosi Platt

23 thoughts on “Wages of Wins Network Weekend Podcast”

  1. Re: D-Rose,

    Okay, guys, we get your opinion. You guys have a tendency to get on your high horse and really beat it until it’s awful demise.

    Try focusing on something more positive!

    I also find it curious that you ask if the Bulls can challenge the Heat/Celtics, and not the other way around.

    Personally I think the Celtics are stick-a-fork-in-them-done and have no shot at challenging anything, and that the Bulls are my prohibitive favorite to come out of the East, but then again, I didn’t listen to the podcast!

  2. Question: The podcats debates the fact the Knicks have the most efficient offensive in the NBA.

    My question is: how does a blowout affect offensive efficiency? The Bobcats had a 19 point lead against the Knicks early in the 2nd quarter – is it possible that Offense is easier, a LOT easier, when you are that far behind? The other team stops defending so hard, as the game is out of reach, and your defence likely suffers as well, so both teams likely can play better O. Ditto Milwaukee TWICE (16 and 23 points in both 1st quarters).

    The same in reverse may happen, when a team has a big lead and offence gets easier.

    So does being blown out/blowing a team out make an offense more efficient? And what is the efficiency the Knicks have when the game is still on the line?

  3. ^Tell me about it. Sheesh, we get it, Rose is overhyped. No need to mention him over and over and over and over and over again.

    This schtick has gotten old fast.

  4. @Adam

    Rose is not the MVP this year – it’s Kevin Love, as evidenced by his WP48 of .472, almost 17% higher than the next nearest contender, Dwight Howard.

    Kevin is responsible for 25 of Minnesota’s wins, eight of which were negated by his terrible teammates. So he’s pretty much responsible for all 17 of Minnesota’s wins. If he swapped places with Dwight Howard, the Magic would have a few more wins, and the Wolves would not have even 17 wins.

  5. Adam,
    Bouncer Dre here.
    1) Criticizing the podcast without listening
    . . . really?
    2) Criticizing us for “beating the Derrick Rose” horse to death”
    Have you been paying attention to any other NBA news outlet. I assure you our “coverage” of him pales in comparison
    3) Be more positive?
    Physician heal thyself!

  8. “Kevin is responsible for 25 of Minnesota’s wins, eight of which were negated by his terrible teammates. So he’s pretty much responsible for all 17 of Minnesota’s wins. If he swapped places with Dwight Howard, the Magic would have a few more wins, and the Wolves would not have even 17 wins.”

    They’d have negative eight wins, right?

  9. This is pretty unrelated, but I don’t where else to ask. @nerdnumbers, what is up with the new automated wins produced layout? It’s not sortable and you can’t even look at previous years. I understand that you want to move away from silverlight, but I really enjoyed looking at WP in previous seasons and was hoping you’d go further back in NBA history, rather than eliminating past seasons entirely.

  11. @nerdnumbers,

    I’m not the one doing to work. So I feel a little out of line asking for something to be added to the new automated wins page. But it shouldn’t be too difficult to add ADJ P48 since you already calculate it.

    While I understand the idea behind the positional adjustment, my own thinking is more along the lines of each player being rated according to his actual production. I don’t mind seeing big men dominate the ratings. I think they ARE more productive.

    When I compare hybrid players and players that have been playing out of position to their peers, their production prior to a positional adjustment makes the comparison easier.

  12. “Bouncer Dre here.”

    LOL

    “1) Criticizing the podcast without listening
    . . . really?”

    What’s your point? I only commented on what Mr. Berri mentioned. Try being more specific.

    “2) Criticizing us for “beating the Derrick Rose” horse to death”
    Have you been paying attention to any other NBA news outlet. I assure you our “coverage” of him pales in comparison”

    Two wrongs don’t make a right.

    Considering you’re, like, one of the “guardians” of this blog, color me unimpressed.

  14. Adam,

    “I didn’t listen to what you were saying, but I still don’t think what I’m guessing you said is worth talking about.”

    Is that the gist of your complaint?

  15. I had a thought today about WP48: is there anyway to incorporate charges drawn / offensive fouls drawn?

    I am not sure how accurate the stats are on that, but surely a charge taken is as good as a steal, if not better. Change of possession AND a foul. The negative of this, blocking calls, is already in a players stats, but the positive, isn’t.

    Guys like Grant Hill, Shane Battier and Varejao would benefit from this, and whilst I am not sure it would help improve on the 95% explanation rate of WP, it seems to make sense to account for it.

  16. MikeMother,
    You’re right on charges. We’re planning to do exactly what you just said, we’re just working on compiling the data (thankfully sites like Hoopdata have started recording it)

  17. I finally got around to listening to the podcast.

    One comment.

    Knicks fans are definitely desperate to have a contending team again because the passion and love for the team runs very deep. However, most of the fans, bloggers, beat writers, radio talk show hosts etc… are essentially clueless about how to value the players. The same can be said for the present ownership who I would classify as King Dolt.

    I don’t consider the fan ignorance much of an issue because I suspect the same is true of most basketball fans around the country. What’s more of a problem is the ignorance of the beat writers and radio call in shows because IMO the NY media helps drive opinion and decision making to much greater degree than elsewhere.

    When you combine King Dolt with a bunch of bird brains calling for all sorts of stupid things, a lot of stupid things get done.

  19. Adam,

    Do you send letters to the Financial Times complaining that they talk about money far too much? Do you offer suggestions to the Weather Channel that they stop droning on about cold fronts?

    One of the most enjoyable parts of the WoW network is that whenever readers do make a request for a post about a particular player, team or anything else for that matter, there’s a pretty good chance it’ll get answered. Arturro especially is happy to go off the deep in to explore tangents. Perhaps you could make a suggestion for a different post on something that hasn’t been explored, or offer to do one yourself.

    This blog is, if little else, comprehensive. Every team gets at least one post a season. It’s true that Derrick Rose gets disproportionate amount of attention. What do you expect? He the most highly regarded player on one of the few teams in championship contention. According to some, he’s the best player in the league. According to others – which include almost everyone who factor box score stats OR plus/minus stats into their account – he is a prime example of a good player who has great teammates and is being given undue credit for his team’s success.

    It’s not just about Rose. It’s about how we evaluate players and how we evaluate teams. And at an even deeper level – and dberri touches upon this occasionally – it’s about how we evaluate people. Do CEOs really deserve 8-figure salaries for their company’s success? Is it really a president’s fault when unemployment rises? How important are they, really?

    Basketball far easier to analyze that business or politics. There’s much more transparency about what happens on a basketball court. Moreover, while who gets credit for the success or failure of a team is debatable, whether a team is a success or a failure is not. Either a team wins or loses; nobody disputes that the Bulls are great and that the Rockets are not. Success in politics is a much more multifaceted and subjective thing.

    Basketball stats don’t only have to be about basketball; they can be a prism through which we view everything else. The questions “Is Derrick Rose the MVP?” and “Is Derrick Rose the reason that the Bulls are elite?” have some overlap with the much, much more convoluted questions of “Was Ronald Reagan the greatest president of all time?” or “Did Ronald Reagan single-handedly win the Cold War?”. It’s about removing bias and about relying on objective, reliable data.

    Or it can just be about basketball.

    Regardless, Derrick Rose is a big story, and I welcome the variety of coverage he’s receiving from both the WoW network and other media outlets.

    And please, if you’re going to have an opinion, at least make the effort to have it be an informed one.

  20. I don’t have time to listen right now, but I read the post and the comments, and I can’t tell if Gil is serious or not about Kevin Love for MVP. I know you guys are crazy sometimes- but you aren’t that crazy right? You do understand that, you know, playing defense and actually leading your team to wins (not theoretical wins, ACTUAL, TANGIBLE wins) is pretty damn important for MVP?

  21. I read maybe 10% of that big wall of text (No. 1 rule of a good writer: edit).

    I compliment the site when I feel it does well, and criticize it when I feel it’s hackneyed. Deconstruct the idea without demeaning the issue with superfluous belittling remarks and maybe next time you’ll get my full attention.

  22. “Local man responds to criticism of uninformed opinion by forming another uniformed opinion. Details at 11:00.”

  23. I’ll admit that last comment was a bit glib; more suitable for The Onion than this site.

    On a more serious note, it is intellectually dishonest to offer any criticism of anyone without actually hearing them out. If you don’t want to take three minutes to read someone’s post, or a bit longer to listen to someone’s podcast, that’s fine.

    But don’t go spouting off on what you assume is wrong with it. It’s disrespectful to the people who take the time to generate the content, and a waste of time to every who bothers to read yours.

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