Dennis Rodman and Artis Gilmore: Two of the 50 Greatest NBA Players of All-Time?

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The Weekend Podcast returned from summer vacation and, in honor of Dennis Rodman and Artis Gilmore‘s inductions into the Hall of Fame, bloggers from the Wages of Wins Network debated “The Worm”, the “A-Train”, as well as eight other players that should be added to the 50 Greatest NBA Players of All-Time.

The Cast (from the Wages of Wins Journal)

The Synopsis

Mosi published a post in February that updated the 50 Greatest NBA Players of All-Time using Wins Produced and the Hall of Fame probability model from basketball-reference.com. Here was the method he used for updating the list:
  1. Since Wins Produced can only be calculated with statistics that go back to the 1977-78 season, any one that played the majority of their career before 1978 cannot be removed from the list.
  2. Wins Produced is great for measuring the production of a player’s game, but the 50 greatest players should have form and function. They have to look like a great player and this has to be validated by a group similar to the one that selected the original 50 greatest players. To meet that criteria, the only players that will be considered for addition to the list will be those that have a greater than 50% chance of being selected to the Hall of Fame, according to basketball-reference.com’s Hall of Fame Probability model.

Devin felt players from the 1950s and 1960s were overrated and responded to Mosi’s post with his own updated list of the 50 Greatest NBA Players using a different method.

Here is Devin’s method: For players who played their whole careers after the 1976-77 season (also known as the turnover era), I simply made use of Arturo’s handy list of the greatest players since 1978. For players who played at least part of their careers before the 1977-78 season, I used this method (click on link to see method) for estimating Wins Produced. It’s important to note that, due to the fact that the NBA didn’t keep track of steals, blocks, or turnovers during most of the pre-turnover era, the WP numbers are inflated. I also didn’t count ABA stats…

Despite the different methods, Mosi and Devin’s lists had 35 players in common. That left 15 different players from each list in limbo, so Mosi and Devin took their differences to Arturo for arbitration on a podcast. This spreadsheet lists the players Mosi and Devin debated for Arturo’s decision.

Debating the 50 Greatest NBA Players of All-Time

Bill Sharman vs. Grant Hill. Arturo’s decision: Hill

Paul Arizin vs. Larry Nance (highlights). Arturo’s decision: Nance Neither

Pete Maravich vs. Marcus Camby. Arturo’s decision: Camby Neither

Earl Monroe vs. Paul Pierce. Arturo’s decision: Pierce

Billy Cunningham vs. Dirk Nowitzki. Arturo’s decision: Both

Rick Barry vs. Steve Nash. Arturo’s decision: Both

Dave Bing vs. LeBron James. Arturo’s decision: LeBron

Sam Jones vs. Artis Gilmore (highlights). Arturo’s decision: Gilmore

Dave DeBusschere vs. Mark Jackson (highlights). Arturo’s decision: DeBuschere Jackson Neither

(Editor Arturo’s note: If you listen all the way to the end you’ll find that the final descicion was neither. I called an audible and gave it to Dwyane Wade)

Bob Cousy vs. Shawn Marion. Arturo’s decision: Cousy

Nate Archibald vs. Ben Wallace. Arturo’s decision: Wallace

Hal Greer vs. Buck Williams (highlights). Arturo’s decision: Neither

Lenny Wilkens vs. Walt Bellamy (analysis & highlights). Arturo’s decision: Bellamy Neither

Willis Reed vs. Dikembe Mutombo. Arturo’s decision: Both

John Havlicek vs. Dennis Rodman. Arturo’s decision: Both

After arbitration, the WoW Network’s 50 Greatest NBA Players of All-Time were (in no particular order, with changes to the NBA’s original list marked by an asterisk):

  1. Bill Russell
  2. Bob Pettit
  3. Charles Barkley
  4. Clyde Drexler
  5. Dave Cowens
  6. David Robinson
  7. Dolph Schayes
  8. Elgin Baylor
  9. Elvin Hayes
  10. Gary Payton
  11. George Mikan
  12. Hakeem Olajuwon
  13. Jason Kidd
  14. Jerry Lucas
  15. Jerry West
  16. John Stockton
  17. Julius Erving
  18. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
  19. Karl Malone
  20. Kevin Garnett
  21. Kobe Bryant
  22. Larry Bird
  23. Magic Johnson
  24. Michael Jordan
  25. Moses Malone
  26. Nate Thurmond
  27. Oscar Robertson
  28. Patrick Ewing
  29. Robert Parish
  30. Scottie Pippen
  31. Shaquille O’Neal
  32. Tim Duncan
  33. Walt Frazier
  34. Wes Unseld
  35. Wilt Chamberlain
  36. Grant Hill*
  37. Paul Pierce*
  38. Billy Cunningham
  39. Dirk Nowitzki*
  40. Rick Barry
  41. Steve Nash*
  42. LeBron James*
  43. Artis Gilmore*
  44. Mark Jackson*  Dwyane Wade*
  45. Bob Cousy
  46. Ben Wallace*
  47. Willis Reed
  48. Dikembe Mutombo*
  49. John Havlicek
  50. Dennis Rodman*

The final list is a product of each blogger’s biases: Mosi’s respect for the old school and Hall of Fame, All-Star Team and All-NBA selections; Devin’s views on basketball in the 50s and 60s and reliance on Wins Produced to identify greatness; and Arturo’s preference for modern players, belief that big men win championships and fascination with Rodman. The interaction of all those biases made for an interesting, hour-long discussion.

You can listen to the podcast one of three ways:

What were the best and worst decisions made for the WoW Network’s 50 Greatest NBA Players of All-Time? Let us know in the comments section.

Note from DJ (think of this as the first comment):  The following post – from 2009 – argues that Rick Barry is probably not one of the 50 greatest players of all-time: The Better Barry

At least, I don’t think Brent Barry is one of the 50 greatest players of all-time.  And I do think Brent was a more productive player – at least per-minute – than his famous father.

Note from Arturo: I put Mr. Dwyane Wade in. Here’s the highlight reel:

11 thoughts on “Dennis Rodman and Artis Gilmore: Two of the 50 Greatest NBA Players of All-Time?”

  1. I loved the podcast. A few thoughts:
    Paul Pierce seems to consistently show up well in WoW evaluations, and I always seem to see him listed as a SG. Looking back through Pierce’s Celtics teams, I don’t see it. The 2000′s Celtics had no bigs other than Tony Battie and Antoine Walker, and had several guards playing 1,000+ minutes every year. Doesn’t that make him the SF? I realize that Eric Williams played big minutes in several of those seasons, but I think he has to be at least a 2.5, if not a full SF. Of course, those seasons are before the middle of the last decade, when Williams was gone and Pierce played beside Ricky Davis and then Ray Allen. Pierce has to be the SF in those lineups.
    It’s a minor point, but it relates to a major point. If Grant Hill is in, and Paul Pierce is in as a SF, then I think Shawn Marion has to be in the top 50. He was probably somewhere in between the two quality-wise, and if Pierce was in fact a 3, then Marion has to have a stronger claim than Pierce.
    Also, I think striking Mark Jackson and replacing him with D Wade really highlights the greatest difficulty in making a “Best of All Time” list: it’s easy to overrate active players. We don’t actually know what Wade’s career will look like. Though he’s been as good or better than Drexler or Kobe at their primes, his career production so far has only been roughly equivalent to that of Rodney McCray (who didn’t make the list). Wade will probably make the list some day, but what if he gets injured?
    To the same point, should Dwight Howard be on the list? He certainly will be, but what if he never played another game? What about Chris Paul, or Kevin Love? It’s tough to compile a list without projecting active players’ future performance.
    Thanks for the debate!

  2. MOS,
    Great comment as usual. My point on Wade (and Lebron) is that I would take their careers right now over Jackson and Camby. Lebron’s giving you five years of top 3 play. Wade is giving you 7 of top 5 and the best sg play in the playoffs of anyone not named michael Jordan.

  3. Greg,

    Yeah, Pierce has been at SF almost exclusively for years and years now, but when he first got started in the league (and was skinnier), he played some SG.

    As for Marion: I still can’t believe Marion was snubbed…for a guy who shot 37% over his career (and remember, there were no threes to help boost his TS%). The Houdini of the Hardwood (and Celtics’ mystique) certainly managed to mystify even one of our stat-iest stat guys.

    Arturo, if I’m a player, I’d certainly rather have Wade’s career to date (more money, more prestige, more rings). But if I’m a GM – and I get to have each player for their entire career up until now – I’d take Jackson over Camby and Wade (in that order).

    LeBron makes the list now. Paul and Howard don’t make the list yet, but barring catastrophic injury, are almost guaranteed at this point (after all, Grant Hill made my list). Wade I have some doubts about, but he’s certainly on track. And as I mentioned in the podcast, Love, Griffin, and Durant are still too young to make any kind of decision about them.

  4. Great podcast guys, I’m also a big fan of the topic.

    @Mosi Hall of Fame, All-Star Team and All-NBA selections don’t seem that strong of an argument considering every time they are announced some posts about the players that should have been selected.

  5. Marion should not have been borderline. I can buy Camby as borderline but I think some Celtic tinted Goggles let Pierce in front of him.

    Arturo’s argument for Wade would work if a mere 30 minutes earlier he hadn’t said “Career stats count” when talking Grant Hill.

    Very enjoyable podcast and I loved the format and would rank it an A+ if in the last five minutes Arturo and Mosi hadn’t conspired to throw Marcus Camby off the list.

  6. haha, I actually agreed that Camby was one of the weaker candidates on the list.

    I did agree that Ben Wallace should be on the list. Bill James makes a rough estimate of how good players were who were prevented from playing in the big leagues through circumstances they couldn’t control (like racial segregation). Essentially, the player gets credit for being a world-class player for all the years they played in the Negro Leagues. Ben Wallace didn’t get to play 2,000 minutes in a season until he was 26, despite being very productive. I think his coaches’ ineptitude shouldn’t count against him; after all, it was beyond his control, and he was a good player.

    Finally, this may make me a homer but that’s okay: I’m holding out on Tracy McGrady until the end of his career. He was just as good as Grant Hill at his zenith. If he can make a Hill-like late-career comeback, I’d be willing to consider him for top 50.

  7. @MarkWylie:

    I guarantee people have problems with this list, too (I know I do). Taking issues w/ selections doesn’t denigrate them. As I stated in the “Kobe & Amar’e Are Most Overrated” post, the value of All-Star selections is they illustrate which players were valued by the fans, All-NBA illustrates which players were valued by reporters & broadcasters and HoF illustrates which players were valued by some secret, exclusive combination of both with players & executives.

    I think defining greatness by one number, whether it’s points, wins produced or anything else, is flawed. No single number defines greatness in basketball.

  8. Whenever I list my top 10 players I stop when I get to about 15 because it’s easier to suggest who should be on the list than decide who should be taken off. Maybe all the contributors should write their list to compare and broaden the data and opinions?

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