Why Kobe is an All-Time Great, Wade is not yet, and Iguodala might be someday

All Time Greats

Age before Beauty

An all-time list should by definition be exclusive. Wade doesn’t belong on it, not yet at least. A great player should be defined by their legacy. Looking at a player’s prime is a good thing, but I’m not quite sold on it. The fact that John Stockton played almost two decades at the top level is a major accomplishment.

I decided to add yet another volley into the greatest of all time debate. Using my ever standard 10.0 Wins Produced as a metric for a star season, I looked for players with multiple years as a star. I found a list of 25 players I think deserve greatest of all time consideration.  And Wade isn’t one of them.

Table 1: Top Players Ranked by Number of 10+ Wins Produced Seasons

Player Star Seasons Best Season Star WP* Star MP* Star WP48
John Stockton 17 23.2 303.9 45241 0.322
Kevin Garnett** 15 30.7 294.8 42764 0.331
Jason Kidd** 15 24.3 283.9 43380 0.314
Karl Malone 14 22.8 261.4 43343 0.289
Tim Duncan** 14 25.0 255.9 38982 0.315
Shaquille O’Neal 13 27.1 233.4 34076 0.329
Moses Malone 13 23.5 215.3 36881 0.280
Robert Parish 13 21.3 178.3 33089 0.259
Magic Johnson 12 29.6 292.7 32287 0.435
Charles Barkley 12 30.2 276.7 32932 0.403
David Robinson 12 28.6 247.2 33444 0.355
Hakeem Olajuwon 12 25.7 225.6 33981 0.319
Kobe Bryant** 12 18.4 158.6 35360 0.215
Michael Jordan 11 32.9 265.6 34768 0.367
Larry Bird 11 27.6 251.7 32592 0.371
Dennis Rodman 11 33.1 231.1 26638 0.416
Dikembe Mutombo 11 24.5 196.9 31783 0.297
Clyde Drexler 11 20.8 187.5 29714 0.303
Buck Williams 11 22.3 166.0 31192 0.255
Mark Jackson 11 15.1 143.0 28825 0.238
Scottie Pippen 10 21.4 166.3 30189 0.264
Steve Nash** 10 19.0 144.3 26637 0.260
Larry Nance 10 16.8 140.9 26537 0.255
Gary Payton 10 20.4 136.8 31831 0.206
Paul Pierce** 10 17.2 136.0 30023 0.217
  • *Player Wins and Minutes for the 1999 Season Adjusted for an 82 game season
  • **Active Player

Longevity isn’t easy. For all of the Kobe hating I do, it’s hard to deny that playing at his level for 12 seasons is no small feat. Every player listed had a decade or more of greatness. Only three of these players failed to hit on the Wages of Wins Top 50 Podcast: Larry Nance, Buck Williams and Mark Jackson. It’s easy to focus on single season or even top players in their prime, but consistency is tough.  And I think consistency deserves to be part of our conversation about all-time greatness.

Still in the Running

Still Have a Shot at Greatness!

In addition to our select set of 25 players from 1978 onwards we have some active players that still have a chance at greatness. Here’s a rundown of our candidates.

Table 2: Active Players with more than 5 Seasons of 10+ Wins Produced

Player Star Seasons Best Season Star WP* Star MP* Star WP48
Ben Wallace 9 27.1 171.6 23836 0.345
Shawn Marion 9 24.0 162.2 26765 0.291
Dirk Nowitzki 8 18.5 126.1 23332 0.259
Marcus Camby 8 19.0 124.3 17526 0.340
Andre Miller 8 15.6 93.1 23092 0.194
LeBron James 7 27.2 155.8 22049 0.339
Dwight Howard 7 24.6 141.3 20405 0.332
Andre Iguodala 7 14.4 91.0 21008 0.208
Manu Ginobili 7 16.0 89.7 15204 0.283
Chauncey Billups 7 16.1 87.5 18723 0.224
Ray Allen 7 17.4 81.9 20335 0.193
Chris Paul 6 29.4 117.3 15747 0.358
Dwyane Wade 6 21.0 99.9 16466 0.291
Tracy McGrady 6 20.0 92.7 16624 0.268
Elton Brand 6 19.3 86.8 17318 0.241
Pau Gasol 6 16.8 86.6 16711 0.249
Vince Carter 6 12.6 70.4 17925 0.189

*Player Wins and Minutes for the 1999 Season Adjusted for an 82 game season

I’ll wholeheartedly agree with a point Arturo made in his recent post. Dwyane Wade is amazing.  But there are some more deserving players ahead of him including Dwight Howard, Chris Paul and Marcus Camby. Wade is the strongest candidate with 6 seasons of greatness and is only a few years away from the decade club. I hope he makes it.

Summing Up

Be Careful about being overly optimistic.

Great players are rare. All-time greats are even rarer. When looking at players it is easy to get caught up in what they could do if they kept going at their current pace. The thing is injuries happen. I just ask when crowning players greatest of all time we take a step back and look at the big picture. After we do that we can all go back to debating why our favorite players deserve in the club and why Andre Iguodala — when his career finally ends — might be a Hall of Fame First-Ballot candidate.

-Dre

Grant Hill is NO Dwyane Wade

Arturo Galletti is the Co-editor and Director of Analytics for the Wages of Wins Network. He is an Electrical Engineer with General Electric in the lovely isle of Puerto Rico, where he keeps his production lines running by day and night (and weekends) and works on sport analysis with his free time.

After all, the earth moves around the sun – isn’t it best to turn the other cheek? Does it make any difference whether the earth is standing still or moving around the sun? We can expect conflict again. Science is developing and new things will be found out which will he in disagreement with the present‑day metaphysical theory of certain religions.
– From “The Relation of Science and Religion” a transcript of a talk given by Dr. Feynman at the Caltech YMCA Lunch Forum on May 2, 1956.

One of the really fun parts of the Wages of Wins network is how often we disagree. We are not a homogeneous community but rather a diverse group of individuals who all bring our  unique viewpoints to the table. We tend to spend long hours arguing over a lot of details and the specifics of the work we do. Generally, this ability to challenge and question ourselves leads us to better models and answers.

It makes for great copy as well.

Case in point, last weekend Mosi, Devin and myself argued over updating the NBA top  50 on our weekend podcast.  After arbitration (by yours truly), the WoW Network’s 50 Greatest NBA Players of All-Time were (in no particular order, with changes to the NBA’s original list marked by an asterisk):

  1. Bill Russell
  2. Bob Pettit
  3. Charles Barkley
  4. Clyde Drexler
  5. Dave Cowens
  6. David Robinson
  7. Dolph Schayes
  8. Elgin Baylor
  9. Elvin Hayes
  10. Gary Payton
  11. George Mikan
  12. Hakeem Olajuwon
  13. Jason Kidd
  14. Jerry Lucas
  15. Jerry West
  16. John Stockton
  17. Julius Erving
  18. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
  19. Karl Malone
  20. Kevin Garnett
  21. Kobe Bryant
  22. Larry Bird
  23. Magic Johnson
  24. Michael Jordan
  25. Moses Malone
  26. Nate Thurmond
  27. Oscar Robertson
  28. Patrick Ewing
  29. Robert Parish
  30. Scottie Pippen
  31. Shaquille O’Neal
  32. Tim Duncan
  33. Walt Frazier
  34. Wes Unseld
  35. Wilt Chamberlain
  36. Grant Hill*
  37. Paul Pierce*
  38. Billy Cunningham
  39. Dirk Nowitzki*
  40. Rick Barry
  41. Steve Nash*
  42. LeBron James*
  43. Artis Gilmore*
  44. Mark Jackson*  Dwyane Wade*
  45. Bob Cousy
  46. Ben Wallace*
  47. Willis Reed
  48. Dikembe Mutombo*
  49. John Havlicek
  50. Dennis Rodman*

Now I made some interesting calls in that post. Particularly as related to including modern and active players on the list based on their achievements so far. The final one was to include Dwayne Wade as one of the greatest 50 NBA players based on his career thus far. I believe this was clearly the correct call and I found general agreement from my podcast partners. (Editor Dre’s Note: two out of three aint bad but Devin didn’t agree)

All time greats?

My co-editor Dre did not think it was quite that clear cut. He compared Dwyane Wade  and  Grant Hill (another player we included on the list).  His conclusion? Neither had done quite  enough . . . yet.

Is he right? Let’s examine the numbers (as a poster of course):


The poster was prepared by looking  at every player’s career from 1978 to 2011, and doing a composite ranking using total wins produced and wins produced per 48 minutes for all players with at least 8000 minutes played. The poster then shows the top 100 players. Dwayne Wade sits at number 39 overall, 13 amongst all guards and 12th the amongst all active players in this ranking. Grant Hill does not quite come out as well (68th overall, 31st amongst forwards and 23rd amongst active players).

Given that there are 20 eligible and worthy players from before 1978 (full or partial career), Grant Hill is a no-go.

Good but not Great


Dwayne Wade is an interesting case though. If I hold that there should be thirty slots for modern players then he also sits just outside of consideration range. But that’s not really comparing apples to apples.


Dwyane Wade has played in the NBA from the ages of 22 to 29 and if I compare him to players from 1978 onward in that age range he comes out 24th overall and 10th amongst guards. By those numbers, I am very much willing to give him a pass onto the NBA top 50 on one of the modern player slots.

The more interesting point to me is that Shawn MarionDwight Howard and Chris Paul  (17, 18 and 24 on the career list for modern players) clearly deserve to be considered for the top 50 as well. Who might need to go?

Don't look at me like that

We may just need another podcast.

-Arturo

Editor Dre’s Note: This isn’t over!

 

Commenting on ESPN’s Total Quarterback Rating (QBR)

That's not a football!

 

Dave Berri is the General Manager of the Wages of Wins Network.  He is a Professor of Economics at Southern Utah University, lead author of both “The Wages of Wins” and “Stumbling on Wins”, and past president of the North American Association of Sports Economists.

 

Earlier this month, ESPN introduced the Total Quarterback Ranking (QBR).  This metric was developed by a number of people at ESPN (led by Dean Oliver) in an effort to replace the NFL’s current quarterback rating system.

As Dean Oliver noted in explaining QBR, although this measure is new, it clearly builds upon work that has been done in the past.  Specifically, it builds upon the work of Brian Burke at Advanced NFL Stats (work – that Brian often notes – builds upon the work of many others).  In fact, Brian also helped the ESPN people building QBR by explaining the metrics presented at Advanced NFL Stats.

Soon after QBR was introduced, Brian offered an evaluation of this effort at Advanced NFL Stats.  Here is what Brian liked about ESPN’s stat.

  • It includes sacks, running, fumbles and all the other important things that the traditional NFL passer rating doesn’t.
  • It doesn’t double count anything, as the NFL passer rating does with completions.
  •  It is based primarily on EPA (Expected Points Added), which accounts for down, distance, and field position.
  • It is also based on WP (Wins Probability), which considers time and score.
  • It’s a rate stat instead of a cumulative stat.

And here are some issues that Brian has with QBR.

  • It is proprietary.
  • It is unit-less.
  • It is an amalgamation of other stats.

One can go to Advanced NFL Stats for Brian’s complete discussion of these issues.  In this forum I wish to briefly address a different issue.

Brian and I recently co-authored a chapter in a forthcoming academic volume exploring the economics of professional football (a volume edited by Kevin Quinn).  Our chapter focused on how statistics can be used to evaluate players.  More specifically, we looked at the work presented in The Wages of Wins (QB Score and Wins Produced) and also all the wonderful work Brian does at Advanced NFL Stats.

Part of our discussion focused on an issue that any football metric should address.  Does the measure tell us much about future performance?  Decisions are statements about what a player will do in the future.  But if a player’s performance – as measured by any specific metric – is inconsistent, then the metric probably doesn’t help a decision-maker actually make decisions.

To address this issue, we looked at the consistency of various measures utilized to capture a quarterback’s contribution.  QBR was not available when we wrote the chapter (we finished our chapter last April and the book should come out… well, sometime in the future).  But now that we have three years of QBR data, we can now look at the same issue with respect to ESPN’s new stat.

The methodology is follows.  We look at quarterbacks who played consecutive seasons.  We then consider how much of a quarterback’s performance in the current season is explained by what a quarterback did the previous year.  Here are the results Brian and I report in the chapter, with the QBR results added.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The first three measures – Expected Points, Win Probability Added, and Success Rate – come from Advanced NFL Stats.  Wins Produced comes from The Wages of Wins (it was updated for this chapter) and QB Rating comes from the NFL.  Of these, the most consistent is Success Rate while WPA is the least consistent.

We also presented the four elements of the NFL’s metric.  As one can see, interceptions per attempt are essentially random (a point made in The Wages of Wins).

Finally we see the ESPN’s measure.  The observations for ESPN’s measure are currently limited. But we can see that in the limited sample we have, ESPN’s metric is more consistent than the NFL’s metric.  It is also more consistent than Expected Points, Win Probability, Wins Produced, and the NFL’s metric.  However, it is not quite as consistent as Success Rate.

Of course, the consistency of all these measures pales in comparison to what we see in the NBA (72% of a player’s ADJ P48 is explained by what he did last year in the NBA).  But it is the case that QBR is an improvement – at least from this perspective – on the NFL’s metric.  And since that was the stated objective, we can argue that QBR is a success.

- DJ

P.S. All that being said, I do think Brian brought up some valid points.  And hopefully those issues can be addressed in the future.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Dwyane Wade is Grant Hill with a Ring

Greatest of All Time?

Like Michael and Larry right?

Is Dwyane Wade one of the greatest of all time? Other Wages of Wins Analysts may think so. A simple fact is titles do influence our perception of players. Let’s take a very simple example: Grant Hill. Is Grant Hill one of the greatest of all time? The common response to that is that he was a great talent that could have been an all time great if his career wasn’t hampered due to injury. That’s a polite way of saying no. However I contend if you argue Dwyane Wade is an all-time great then Grant Hill is as well.

Early Careers

Anybody remember these Sprite ads?

Grant Hill and Dwyane Wade both entered the league at the ripe old age of 22 and both were drafted by equally abysmal teams. And here is how each performed early in their respective careers.

Table 1: Grant Hill’s Early Career (1995-2000) with the Detroit Pistons

Season Player Team MP G WP48 WP* Rank SF Rank
1995 Grant Hill Detroit 2678 70 0.176 9.8 31 4
1996 Grant Hill Detroit 3260 80 0.320 21.7 3 1
1997 Grant Hill Detroit 3147 80 0.396 26.0 1 1
1998 Grant Hill Detroit 3294 81 0.239 16.4 10 2
1999 Grant Hill Detroit 1,852 50 0.273 17.2* 6 1
2000 Grant Hill Detroit 2776 74 0.239 13.8 16 4
Total 17007 435 0.296 104.9

*1999 Season Wins Produced Numbers are adjusted for an 82 game season. The actual Wins Produced for Grant Hill was 10.5.

Table 2: Dwyane Wade‘s “Early” Career (2004-2011) with the Miami Heat

Season Player Team MP G WP48 WP Rank SG Rank
2004 Dwyane Wade Miami 2126 61 0.128 5.7 89 22
2005 Dwyane Wade Miami 2974 77 0.205 12.7 17 3
2006 Dwyane Wade Miami 2897 75 0.295 17.8 8 1
2007 Dwyane Wade Miami 1931 51 0.291 11.7 24 4
2008 Dwyane Wade Miami 1954 51 0.146 5.9 84 14
2009 Dwyane Wade Miami 3048 79 0.331 21.0 4 1
2010 Dwyane Wade Miami 2792 77 0.306 17.8 7 1
2011 Dwyane Wade Miami 2824 76 0.322 18.9 5 1
Total 20546 547 0.260 111.5

When we account for the fact that 1999 was a lockout shortened season, we see that Wade in his eight year career has been about as productive as Hill was in his early six year career. The major difference is that Hill became a better player much quicker. Hill was a top 10 talent in the NBA right up until his injury cut him down in the 2000 season.

Wade started a little slower than Hill, but also became a top-ten caliber player. He was then hit with the injury bug as well. He seems to have recovered, and has been an MVP candidate and the best two-guard in the league for the last three seasons (yes, even better than Kobe).

The Difference in Decisions

Funny what playing next to a star does for your image.

Wade has also had the fortune of good players wanting to come to Miami while he has been healthy. In 2005 Shaquille O’Neal hopped on board just in time for Wade to hit his stride and win a title. In 2011 LeBron James decided to join forces with Wade. This helped Wade achieve post-season success and as a result get himself into the greatest of all time discussions.

Both Hill and Wade had very productive primes (the clock is still running for Wade) and have had four seasons as a top-ten talent in the NBA. When calling either an all-time great I would say neither has done enough . . . yet. Hill’s time is up and Wade may get there one day. I just want to wait before elevating an injury-prone player like Wade to the ranks of Michael Jordan or Clyde Drexler – or even Kobe Bryant – just because he’s had four great seasons.

-Dre

2011 NBA Draft Meta-Review

Devin Dignam (of NBeh? “fame”) is the Toronto Raptors writer for the Wages of Wins Network. His background with the Raptors gives him unique insight into many areas including the draft, overpaid players and overrated players.

To (finally) wrap up my coverage of the 2011 NBA draft, I would like to perform a meta-review. What is a meta-review? A review of reviews! By looking at other writers’ draft reviews, I hope to glean new insight into the typical draft review process and see how my reviews stack up with the rest of them.

This post was inspired by wiLQ over at Weak Side Awareness, who pointed out that most reviewers hand out top-heavy scores, and Jeff Briggs over at Real Clear Sports, who performed his own analysis on the matter. As such, I am relying on some of Jeff’s data, and will be using the same method that he used. What is the method? As stated by Jeff:

Scores are tabulated like a regular GPA. An ‘A’ is a 4.0, an ‘A-’ is a 3.7, ‘B+’ a 3.3, ‘B’ a 3 and so on. (no extra points were given for an A+ as not all graders used the A+ option.

The Writers

Here in Canada, most of our GPAs are graded out of 10, but I can humour our neighbours to the south and go with the method as outlined above. Based on that method, what do the average GPAs look like, and how do my grades compare to the other writers?

As you can see, I am relatively stingy when it comes to giving out grades. Whereas the average GPA of the other writers was 2.90, my average GPA was 2.55. I have no problem with that result; that means that I show the lowest tendency to succumb to grade inflation of all the writers involved. Additionally, the standard deviation of my grades is the largest, which means that I made the most use of the entire range of all possible grades. Given the fact that one grade, ‘F’, already covers 50% of the entire grading scale, this is very important.

Of the other writers, Chad Ford, CBS Sports, and NBADraft.net show the least restraint when it comes to handing out good grades. NBC Sports, Pro Basketball Talk, and the Houston Chronicle are all clustered together in the next tier, and SB Nation and I are off by ourselves at the bottom. As for standard deviation, other than myself and SB Nation, the other writers are all clustered together near 0.70. Final verdict when it comes to each individual writer: kudos to me, and to a lesser extent SB Nation; better luck next time for everyone else.

The Teams

I’d also like to see how my individual grades compare to the other writers. In particular, were there any teams that we disagreed about?

The average difference between my grades and the other writers was -0.30, and the standard deviation was 1.31. Eight teams fell outside that range: I graded New York, Miami, and New Jersey significantly higher than the other writers, and graded Washington, Detroit, Memphis, Minnesota, and New Orleans significantly lower than the other writers. The other writers (as a group) and I gave almost identical grades to Milwaukee, Sacramento, and Boston; as a matter of fact, with the exception of Chad Ford (who awarded them an ‘A-’), every writer gave the Celtics a ‘B’, so the Celtics win the consensus award. The teams with the most disagreement were the Lakers, Sacramento, and Minnesota. Appropriately enough, that means that the T-Wolves win the discord award.

A match too good to last....

 - Devin